The Classic Car Culture and "Bro" Attitude Have to Separate 

"mikecyc72usa" (mikecyc72usa) 01/10/2016 at 14:28 • Filed to: Triumph, vintage, Spitfire, Jaguar, classic cars, bullying, cyberbullying, British cars

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I don’t get it. Someone posts a pic of a beautiful woman dressed tastefully with a perfectly restored sports car. Cue the frat boy bro culture comments to be posted:

“Can we have a photo with the top off please?” Of course a few minutes later the poster says “I meant the car.” Sure you did, you bastard. This is the just the beginning of the avalanche of inappropriate comments. Most are double entendre, followed with winky emoticons. If someone dares to object to it they are told to lighten up, stop being so politically correct, or “we’re only joking.”

Photo courtesy of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

This is the type of photo that starts all this “banter.” I’m befuddled by the fact the same jerks who will objectify the woman (Yasmin Le Bon in this photo) will say how they don’t understand why there are fewer and fewer young people and women in the British car or any other niche classic car hobby with their next breath. What, you don’t think posting comments like “nice bodywork”, “oh there are cars in the picture?”, “would love to polish those curves” are inappropriate and have nothing to do with it?

I love the response of “ like in everything else, sex sells. If he did not want you to notice the girl, the photographer could have simply shot pictures of the car. Or he could have use a much simpler model or a senior citizen or a man for that fact.” So I guess this guy is of the argument women ask to be harassed, heckled, leered at, and objectified. I bet he’s cool if his wife dresses nicely to have her catcalled and harassed by guys on the street, because you know, she put herself out there in public. She must be asking for it, right? That response totally makes my point. He is valuing a woman on her appearance.

So what if these guys saw the same type of comments about their wife, daughter, granddaughter, niece, girlfriend, etc? Is it still ok? Are they willing to say these comments verbatim to the photographer and or the model in person? Or how about with their wife, daughter, niece, granddaughter, or girlfriend standing next to them? Or are they just bullies behind a keyboard, trying to be “manly” and waiting for their set to drop and a backbone to miraculously appear in them? Cowards love the internet.

I’m disappointed and embarrassed by this behavior. Also a bit uncomfortable when guys in their 50s, 60s, 70s, are making these types of remarks about women their daughter or granddaughter’s age. Actually, it disgusts me. I know a number of kick ass women who not only are wonderful, loving, strong, smart and independent, but they also can outdrive me any day of the week.

I don’t want to hear the “men will be men” BS excuse. I don’t want to hear the “It’s just us having fun”, or “it’s all in jest.” Sounds like a bunch of bullies making excuses after someone they picked on took their life. If you don’t have the guts to say it in person, then stay silent. If you only can do it via a keyboard, welcome to the Halls of Cowardice. If you are making comments about a woman 30-40 years younger than you, well...

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:35

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And these are the same douchebags who carry the torch of “PC is ruining X” with X being whatever they're into evolving as society changes.

DrJohannVegas > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/10/2016 at 14:41

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https://thenib.com/free-speech-th…

TractorPillow > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:42

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Fully agree.

Why does there need to be a model in the picture, though?

ViperGuy21 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:43

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Well said my friend! It's so sad that people are so ignorant of reality

Alfalfa > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/10/2016 at 14:44

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Berang > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:45

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Depends on whether they’re speaking to a photograph or an actual person.

McMike > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:45

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I don’t get it. Someone posts a pic of a beautiful woman dressed tastefully with a perfectly restored sports car. Cue the McMike comments:

Could I see another photo of her NOT sitting on 850003, the first production E-Type?

mikecyc72usa > McMike 01/10/2016 at 14:47

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Hahahahaha!

mikecyc72usa > TractorPillow 01/10/2016 at 14:48

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Sometimes it’s theme shoot, sometimes it’s a fashion shoot, sometimes the photog loves the car and woman and wants to combine them.

davedave1111 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:49

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You’ve got two different things there. Comments like the one about seeing it with the top off are just jokes, and that’s fine, everyone knows they are - it’s traditional, like going to have the oil changed and telling the guy to ‘lube me up’. Then there’s creeping out over the person posing with a car, and that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

“you don’t think posting comments like “nice bodywork”, “oh there are cars in the picture?”, “would love to polish those curves” are inappropriate and have nothing to do with it?”

It’s an E-Type penis. Of course those comments are appropriate.

“So what if these guys saw the same type of comments about their wife, daughter, granddaughter, niece, girlfriend, etc? Is it still ok? Are they willing to say these comments verbatim to the photographer and or the model in person? Or how about with their wife, daughter, niece, granddaughter, or girlfriend standing next to them?”

Yes, yes, and yes. Because they’re about cars, not about people. If you can’t get a handle on that, you really need to learn how humour works.

To be clear, ‘oh, I was only joking’ is no kind of excuse unless you were actually joking and everyone knew it. At that point the handful of people who didn’t get the joke are just being humourless bigots if they start complaining.

“So I guess this guy is of the argument women ask to be harassed, heckled, leered at, and objectified.”

Dude, she’s a professional model. Of course she’s chosen that line of work for herself. It’s no different commenting on her looks to making jokes about Ron Jeremy’s penis: things that are completely unacceptable normally become acceptable when aimed at someone who’s chosen to objectify themself as a career.

Really, I think you’re completely confused here. No-one thinks Yasmin le Bon is hot anymore unless they’re into geriatrics. The jokes are actually poking fun at the idea that the photo is improved by her presence, rather than it being completely unnecessary and getting in the way.

McMike > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:49

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Yasmin Le Bon

GIRLS ON FILM!

mikecyc72usa > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 14:50

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Free speech is fine, but if you don’t have the guts to say it to the woman’s face, don’t type it.

Sam > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:55

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The comments are gross. In regards to the photos, tasteful placement of models in the shoot is fine. I mean, a lot of the classic cars were designed “to mimic the curves of a woman”.

yamahog > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:56

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Xyl0c41n3 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:56

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He was being sarcastic. The “haven’t you ever heard of free speech" argument is another common refrain from the lowlifes you're talking about in defense of their sexist drivel.

Sam > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:57

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That's the thing, though. A lot of these guys are old men who don't have the self control to NOT say these things to the woman's face.

davedave1111 > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/10/2016 at 14:57

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I don’t know about PC in the US, but over here PC is just basic politeness and common courtesy. Which is why we’ve never quite understood why you lot bang on about it so much. But then we’re notoriously polite, so...

DrJohannVegas > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 14:57

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I think you have the right to say what you want. I don’t think that right makes you automatically immune from criticism. If people call you out on your racist, sexist, classist, etc. bullshit, whining about “PC culture” crushing your expression just shows you aren’t really talking about free speech. You are mad because you got called a racist and you don’t think the accuser should get to do that because you are above reproach. The speech act and its content are separate matters.

That comic, however, was mostly a visualization of some of the sentiment Steve expressed. (It’s also very similar to the editorial cartoon posted in WaPo which has been making the rounds, even in this comment thread, but predates it by 18 months.)

edit: Also, I largely agree with your entire post. Thanks for putting it up.

mikecyc72usa > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 14:59

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You missed the point. This pic is an example, not the actual pics. Of course Yasmin is a model. What about if I posted pics of my girlfriend with my car and the above comments you reference were said? What if they were said of your wife or daughter?

Also, that kind of sexist humour may have been ok 25+ years ago, but it isn’t anymore. A woman who is a scientist/teacher/lawyer/mechanic/bank teller who has her picture taken with a Triumph or Porsche or MG shouldn’t have to see guys making comments like I quoted before.

mikecyc72usa > McMike 01/10/2016 at 15:01

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Dude, well played. You are on fire.

yamahog > Berang 01/10/2016 at 15:01

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Either way, it reinforces the ‘bro culture’ OP is describing.

For Sweden > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:06

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Why do people still sit on cars?

DrJohannVegas > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 15:06

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Since you dismissed the gif, I’ll say it again with explanation:

I believe you are being willfully obtuse. Your argument bounces back and forth on the idea that the comments are about the model and the entire rant lacks coherence and logic. You ignore the points by deflecting them through verbiage. Hiding behind creepiness ex post disguised as poorly-delivered sarcasm is a trope on automotive websites. When there is pushback on a comment, the humo(u)r angle is the first line of defen(c/s)e, it seems. The suggestion that the comments are appropriate because the car is an E-type is laughable. Get your head out of your arse.

Also, nice age dig at the end there. You really got her. (/s)

edit: Glad to see you un-dismissed this one. Class act.

DrJohannVegas > McMike 01/10/2016 at 15:08

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Wait: Do you want a photo of the model, or a photo of the car? It’s a bit unclear from your question.

davedave1111 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:09

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I don’t understand what your point was, in that case. I thought you were talking about pictures like the one above, where for some reason there’s an extraneous model in the picture.

Obviously it’s not OK to make comments about people who just randomly turn up in the background, or something, but everyone knows that except a handful of bros.

“What about if I posted pics of my girlfriend with my car and the above comments you reference were said? What if they were said of your wife or daughter?”

“that kind of sexist humour”

There’s no sexist humour involved. There’s car humour, and you seem unable to grasp the difference, hence why you’re conflating two completely different things.

Let me see if I can give you an example:

Couldn’t find a really good pic to demonstrate, but I think you’d agree that a ‘nice nose’ joke about a pic of Kubica and an F1 car is nothing to do with sex. With a picture of someone next to an E-Type or some such, the only place sex enters into it is the car, not the person posing.

Xyl0c41n3 > Sam 01/10/2016 at 15:11

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I’d disagree on the assumption that a lot of this comes from old men. A year ago, those kinds of posts were VERY popular on Oppo. Between the constant criticism of them by me and other women Oppos, and the hard work of the mods, who saw fit to change the rules of this place, you’ll be hard pressed to find such overtly sexist posts here anymore.

That OP made this post today and DIDN’T mention that type of “car culture” being a problem here on Oppo makes me extremely proud. It means Oppo’s efforts to combat sexism are working. Slowly, but surely. Still more work to be done, but basically: fuck yes! This post is awesome. :)

Xyl0c41n3 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:14

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Meant to reply something along these lines to you directly, but ended up replying to someone else here in the comments first, but basically... This is how I feel about your post: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/i-d-disagree-o…

Thank you for your post.

BlackberryShawtyHasAnE46 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:16

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Men objectifying women isn’t a new thing but I’m glad someone is speaking up about it

Berang > yamahog 01/10/2016 at 15:16

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The bro culture of writing dumb things about photographs?

mikecyc72usa > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 15:17

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Wow. You just really don’t get it at ll, do you? It’s not about the exact picture I posted. That is from years ago. It was used as an example of a photo tastefully done. Yet even a photo taken in the spirit of that one generates comments about being topless, buffing or polishing the curves, all double entendre. If you think it’s ok to make comments like that, so be it. If you honestly believe car humour is ok to objectify women, and there’s nothing wrong with it, try asking some women you know. But you seem to have your mind made up, so happy motoring.

DrJohannVegas > Berang 01/10/2016 at 15:20

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The bro culture of writing dumb things about women.

mikecyc72usa > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 15:20

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Thank you. My girlfriend is a scientist, highly educated, and pretty. She was horrified by the comments to some photos on a FB group I’m an admin of. In that arena it is mostly older men who thin they are still the cool guy on the block, when in reality they are the creepy old man we want our kids to stay away from.

EL_ULY > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 15:23

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Lol, man i’m glad I (abandon thread) this one.

It was like target practice with a shot gun.

Berang > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 15:26

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I thought we were talking about photographs. Summon the bros for questioning.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:27

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It’s not just the commenter perpetuating this “bro culture”. It’s the photographer for taking the photo, the owner for agreeing to or even commissioning such a photo, and yes, the woman herself for posing for such a photo. As well as the OP for only focusing on the most obvious aspect of the problem.

If we as car enthusiasts don’t want women to be objectified then we ALL have to stop objectifying them, and not just blaming the “bros”. “What if the model were a woman you are related to or know?” I would hope the women I know 1. wouldn’t be so desperate for attention and 2. would at least use that need to pursue more lucrative channels of fulfilling it (i.e. I highly doubt Yasmine commanded millions of dollars for this shoot as she would have in the past).

Personally I am sick of grid girls and women who prance around car shows without knowing anything, serving as nothing but sexual stimulants for what I imagine manufacturers assume are dry dicked dorks. The whole thing is very insulting and antiquated. I would much rather talk to female engineers, racers, owners and other stakeholders in the car enthusiast realm. The use of women like decorative rugs is a poor reflection of all car enthusiasts- not just the easy target “bros”.

davedave1111 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:27

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“You just really don’t get it at ll, do you?”

No, that’s what I said in the first line of my last reply to you. I don’t get what you’re trying to say because you appear to me to be conflating two completely different things: humour (possibly about sex), and sexist humour.

It is no more sexist to make a joke about ‘nice curves’ on an E-Type than to make a joke about it being a penis. Which is a joke I just made a few minutes ago without you objecting.

Double entendres are not sexist. Exposing* people to them may be, if you only make them in a certain context - but there is no context in which a double entendre won’t come up**.

*Ooo-err.

**I say!

“If you honestly believe car humour is ok to objectify women”

No, I’m just utterly baffled at you linking the two. As you just said yourself, it’s car humour. There is no objectification of any kind going on.

You appear to have conflated two entirely different things, and I can’t see how to make it any plainer to you than with the Kubica example above. The jokes are about the car resembling certain human attributes, not about the human. That is entirely different to making comments about the attractiveness of someone.

DrJohannVegas > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:28

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For those who thing that this is “humor”, I ask you to engage in a simple test:

Take the model out of the photo, or use a similar photo without the model.

Make the same comments.

Assess the humor. Is it the same? More? Less? (I’d venture less.)

If the answer is “Less”, then you are not making a joke about the car. Stop being a child.

If the answer is “more”, congratulations on your humor skills! I look forward to reading your paperback collection of funny car photo comments!

If your joke relies on some shitty double entendre, you are using objectification in the joke. It may be humor, by some standards, but lazy humor. Own the objectification, because you aren’t going to make progress on shaking it off.

yamahog > Berang 01/10/2016 at 15:28

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Maybe there’s some time in the day to make a statement about the bro culture of being purposefully obtuse.

mikecyc72usa > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 15:29

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I need to add that my GF, being a scientist, is in a male dominated field, and very socially awkward males at that. So she picks up on bro jerk behavior and comments quickly, because she’s dealt with the “she’s pretty so can’t be smart” attitude for 10 years, as well as the “looks like the lab just got some ornamentation” type comments for the same period.

DrJohannVegas > Berang 01/10/2016 at 15:29

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(But seriously, if you want to go down the semantic rabbit hole of whether the comments are about the photograph or the subjects of the photograph, you are going that one alone. I’ll stay up here with my coffee and my football.)

mikecyc72usa > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 15:39

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Ok, first, the post isn’t only about the picture I posted, nor is it about an E Type. Second, I let the E Type penis line go because it’s trite and we’ve all heard it many times already. Third, do you make the same comments if it’s just a picture of a Triumph TR3, MGB, Jag XK120, Ferrari 308 GT4 if there is only the car in the photo and no woman? Or even the E Type? I doubt it. Lastly, I just want to point out the two people next to the F1 car in the pic you posted are guys, so the pic isn’t related to the subject of the article. But nice try.

Berang > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 15:42

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Nah, I got no reasons to be ostentatious for anything today.

Berang > yamahog 01/10/2016 at 15:44

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How about the bro cultures of false equivalencies and derailing topics?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 15:48

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^ “It’s traditional” ^

What a cop-out. Being “traditional” doesn’t make it acceptable. The “lube me up” joke about oil changes creeps me out every time. Traditionally, it’s acceptable to rape and pillage villages you’ve just conquered, or going back a couple million years it’s acceptable to take a mate by bashing her over the head with a club (at least that’s what pop-media over the last 50 years tells me!)

Xyl0c41n3 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:51

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I think you’ll find that a lot of us women here on Oppo can relate. Most of us work in male-dominated fields. I know I do.

So, yeah, we’re all used to being treated like window dressing, having our skills and competence underestimated, and have experienced more than our fair share of workplace sexual harassment. And you’re right, that does make it easier to pick up on even subtle examples of sexism.

Like I said earlier, we’ve worked hard to make Oppo a car forum that actually DOES live up to its stated goals of being inclusive of everyone with no tolerance for sexism or racism.

I don’t know if you were around here a year or more ago, but this place wasn’t all that different than what you’re describing in your post, back then. If you want to see what it looked like, look up the NSFW tag, or google “Oppositelock NSFW” and you’ll see how much this place has changed.

If your girlfriend is into cars, you should tell her to swing by here. She'd be more than welcome. :)

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Sam 01/10/2016 at 15:53

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Let’s assume it is all old men (it isn’t). If they didn’t have the self control to prevent themselves from saying a few words then logically they don’t have the self control to door say much worse things. By that logic, it would be safe to assume that most of those guys would either be dead or in prison by the time they’re considered old.

In reality, most of those old guys are a lot smarter and more cunning than they let on. They just give no fucks who they offend. They will shut up if confronted by the right person in the right way. I’ve personally seen them exercise plenty of self control in those types of situations.

mikecyc72usa > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 15:54

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I’ve been here for quite a while, and remember it well. Thankfully it’s where I hope the rest of the online car world gets to sooner than later. My GF has read my posts, and she’s learning about cars. She even worked tech inspection for SVRA National Championships at COTA this past year. I’m pretty lucky.

davedave1111 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 15:55

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“Third, do you make the same comments if it’s just a picture of a Triumph TR3, MGB, Jag XK120, Ferrari 308 GT4 if there is only the car in the photo and no woman? Or even the E Type?”

No, because there’s usually no pun or double entendre there in that case. But if there is, rest assured the joke will get made. You can’t have missed the many dragoning jokes trotted out around here every time there’s a car with a big exhaust pipe.

“Lastly, I just want to point out the two people next to the F1 car in the pic you posted are guys, so the pic isn’t related to the subject of the article.”

I think you’ve missed the point I was making there, then. There was a joke to be made about the car and (one of) the people in the picture. It wasn’t a sexist joke, and nor are others even if they happen to involve sex in some way.

Have you ever seen a Carry On film? Some of the jokes there are definitely sexist, some are at the expense of a sexist character - they were ahead of their time in that respect - but the majority are just innuendo.

At least in this country there’s a fine old tradition of seeing innuendo where there isn’t any. Those jokes get made about everything from cars to kettles - hot and steamy, wahey - and they’re fine. Sexist jokes are a whole different ball game. (Snigger, ball game.)

davedave1111 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 15:57

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“The “lube me up” joke about oil changes creeps me out every time.”

Creepy is one thing, sexist another. If everyone, regardless of sex or gender, says it every time, regardless of the sex or gender of the mechanic, it’s not sexist.

“Being “traditional” doesn’t make it acceptable.”

Actually, it pretty much does as a matter of definition: a tradition is a widely practiced cultural norm. What you mean there is that some traditions ought to be changed. Maybe you’re right, and making ritual bad jokes in certain contexts is one of them. But it’s not sexism you’re complaining about.

Xyl0c41n3 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 16:02

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I would advise ignoring that user. He's not going to get what you're saying, he'll remain willfully obtuse, and trying to argue with him is an exercise in futility. If you were a woman, his comments to you would have long ago devolved to insults. Gives you an idea of what kind of person you're engaging with.

mikecyc72usa > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 16:07

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I agree, but it is fun to watch him paint himself very obviously for all to see how much of an ignorant dolt he is.

yamahog > Berang 01/10/2016 at 16:09

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Hard to say I’m derailing when I am even using the same verbiage as the author to discuss the same points he addressed:

If someone dares to object to it they are told to lighten up, stop being so politically correct, or “we’re only joking.”

But clearly I’m talking to a brick wall here, so have a good one.

Xyl0c41n3 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 16:10

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Snerk.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > PardonMyFlemish16 01/10/2016 at 16:11

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Well then let’s just stop taking photos of women altogether. Ok ladies, you are no longer allowed to be in any photos ever because that would objectify you.

What if this was just a normal woman posing in the photo to remember the event? Entirely meant to be a personal memento. She wouldn’t be able to help it if someone else posted it on the internet.

Women should probably stop wearing flattering clothing, too. Doesn’t matter if it makes them feel good about themselves. Because that would be objectifying.

:/

Berang > yamahog 01/10/2016 at 16:17

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First you throw out a red herring in response to a perfectly valid statement, then you say discussion is closed because you want it to be. I’m guessing the brick wall must be you then.

Scott > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 16:18

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A friend of my sisters used to make all kinds of comments about the cheerleaders and dance squad girls at our University football games. Right up until the first game his daughter was on the dance squad and his wife slapped him for accidentally making a comment about their daughter. He's never said a word about them since.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 16:20

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Yes, creepy and sexist are different. But they often crossover. I’ve never heard a female make the “lube me up” joke outside of terrible B-movies. That makes it sexist. Especially when the same guys that make the joke stop sniggering as soon as they see a female coming.

Personally, I don’t operate on the assumption that everyone before me is correct. Saying that traditional=acceptable does operate on that assumption. Changing the tradition, at least enough to make it more acceptable, means ending one tradition and starting a new one. Thus the old tradition is not acceptable.

PardonMyFlemish16 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 16:21

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Me calling for fellow auto enthusiasts to regard women as equals rather than ornaments is hardly equivalent to demanding that women not be photographed at all. Don’t be an idiot. You like hypotheticals.... why didn’t the photographer drape a man over the car instead of a woman? Why not an overweight grandma instead of a retired model? What exactly was the purpose of this woman in this photo if it wasn’t sexualization/objectification?

Bluecold > Sam 01/10/2016 at 16:21

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Coincidentally, the sole focus of Malcolm Sayer was to make an aerodynamically efficient shape when ge designed the e-type.

you derp you > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/10/2016 at 16:23

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Berang > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 16:27

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This is one of those instances where I agree with the point of the article, but I can’t agree with the author.

I will say that I think people who post lewd comments any time an attractive woman appears in a photograph, annoy and disgust me. The same with people who post derisive comments anytime a fat or old, or (insert word here) woman appears in a photograph.

But - if somebody posts “How about a pic with the top off... ...of the car!” about a picture of a car and a woman, they’re making a joke about the car. Because that’s the only way this joke functions as a joke. All humor is derived from incongruities between what is expected and what is delivered. The incongruity in this joke is that the audience expects the person to be writing about the woman. When they deliver “...the car!” they’ve played off your expectation, that’s the tension. That’s the joke. If you’re mad, that’s on you, not on them. If you can’t handle that joke, I don’t even know how you can handle life. It’s a totally fucking stupid joke, and it’s not really funny (although if one of you finds it funny, no insult intended) - but it’s a joke. Get a grip of yourself, and pray to God you don’t accidentally walk into John Waters film at any point in your life.

That’s not to say such jokes aren’t embarrassing or disappointing or annoying. That’s not even say they’re appropriate. Just that trying to equate a shitty joke to accosting a person on the street is ridiculous. It’s also pretty ridiculous to say “I bet you wouldn’t say that to their face!” because it’s a joke that only works with a static photograph. Really - you can’t make a reasonable comparison between a photograph and an actual person here.

Since I’m already an evil bad guy for saying photographs aren’t people, I felt I may as well elucidate my point. I didn’t and don’t intend to suggest that because photographs aren’t people that dumb comments on photographs are A-OK all the time every time. Just that photographs and people are in two distinctly different categories. What might make me punch somebody in the face if said to a friend, may only make me groan if I read it online. This is apples and oranges. It is, I think, reasonable to have different standards for what is ok in reality vs. fiction.

PS: This post will come off as intelligence insulting to anybody who can differentiate real life from fiction, or who knows what a joke is. I apologize for that.

davedave1111 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 16:31

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“I’ve never heard a female make the “lube me up” joke outside of terrible B-movies.”

Really? Well, that would be a bit different then. Round here even (or especially) little old ladies make it, or similar. The other day I was using a hose to wash something down when a very, very posh lady of a certain age needed to walk by, so I turned it off for a sec. She thanked me, and I said ‘no problem, I didn’t want to get you wet’. She immediately replied ‘my dear boy, at my age that’s never unwelcome’ and walked off.

“Saying that traditional=acceptable does operate on that assumption.”

No, I was just being pedantic about the meaning of tradition. By definition something traditional is acceptable to most people, and that’s part of what one has to change when changing/ending a tradition.

mikecyc72usa > PardonMyFlemish16 01/10/2016 at 16:32

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What if my girlfriend wanted to have some pics taken of her with one of my cars? So what? So instead of people policing themselves and their comments, it’s her and mt faults for taking the pics? I guess you subscribe to the school of women who are raped ask for it because of how they dress, or walk, or look. No, it’s not my responsibility to not give an idiot fodder to be an idiot with.

Then cars shouldn’t have any people near them as pics are taken, I guess. Guess no more wedding pics with the bridal party by a Rolls, or a super talented female driver who is attractive by her race car in a dress. Deflection is unbecoming.

mikecyc72usa > Berang 01/10/2016 at 16:46

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When the “Of the car” part was posted many minutes after the “Pic with the top off”, and only after a number of people chastised the OP of that comment, it’s not a joke. It’s harassment, and the OP then added the “of the car” to try and get out of looking like an ass. Had the “of the car” been included in the original comment, then yes, it’s a poor joke, but a joke.

The issue is that too many people feel it’s ok to make comments like this, and that many folks dismiss them as “guys being guys”, or “that’s just the way he is”.

Put another way, I’ve posted pics of mt GF and my car on photography groups and forums. Not ONCE did anyone make a comment about her, just about the technical aspects of the shots. There were tips about ISO, lighting, color balance, composition, etc. So why is it so different with car people?

Berang > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 16:54

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I’m saying this politely, but you don’t understand how humor works.

All jokes rely on the expectations of the audience. All jokes. For example, we have a model and car next to each other:

Somebody writes “Now how about one with the top off?”

That’s the set up. Now the audience has an expectation - because the car and woman both have tops that are on. Both of them. The joke doesn’t exist if they’re not both in the picture. It’s not a matter of less funny or more funny.

Further, when that somebody then goes “...the car I mean!” They’ve just delivered on the set up. If somebody was thinking they meant the woman, then they’ve just twisted that expectation around. More tension. Tension is the point of humor. Laughter releases tension.

So if the joke doesn’t work when the woman is not in the photo - that means it was actually a joke. And not a sincere statement.

The most absurd thing about all of this BS is that nobody is asking why a photographer needs to herd women around cars, pose and photograph them, to produce a product to sell and be oggled. That gets a pass. But God forbid somebody make a stupid-ass joke about the photo.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > PardonMyFlemish16 01/10/2016 at 16:55

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Does it matter what the subject is? Maybe it’s a photo of an old man in front of an old building. Perhaps the photographer finds them worthy of capturing in film. The photographer finding his subject matter beautiful does not constitute sexism. The guilt here does not lie with the photographer or model.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > davedave1111 01/10/2016 at 17:03

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Really. Difference in culture I guess. I have heard women make sexual jokes and comments before, plenty of times, but never in or around the automotive industry. Not even from the handful of women who went to the tech school I attended.

Yeah, I agree about the definition of traditional. But at the same time acceptable, even to most people, does not mean it’s right or correct or without offense. History is full of examples that prove this.

DrJohannVegas > Berang 01/10/2016 at 17:04

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I realize that I did set the scope of my comment too wide. It would have been more accurate to say “ car humor”. Without the woman in the photo, the “joke” falls flat. So, as written, that post is unclear. I understand how the humor was meant to work, but I appreciate your assessment.

Since we are on the page of sharing mutual assessments, I’ll share mine: You don’t understand the fallacy of relative depravity. Just because this post raised one issue does not mean that those other issues you listed at the end of your post are not a problem. It does, however, seem to be the refuge of every manchild who rises to defend this sort of crap.

Thanks for your Comedy Writing 101 course, though. Real winner. (See, that’s a joke, too. I thought it was shit, but I used a positive statement in an ironic way. That’s another form of humor. Add it to your syllabus.)

Xyl0c41n3 > EL_ULY 01/10/2016 at 17:04

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Uly!!! Como estas?! Cómo pasaste el año nuevo?

Berang > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 17:13

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Because only photographers will notice the photography. People who don’t care about photography are going to see a car and a person, and if they don’t really know much about cars, then only the person is going to interest them. And if they don’t even know much about people, then they might just crack a lame joke or make a lewd comment. That’s the lowest common denominator.

And there are tons of creeps in photography, probably more than in the car hobby (I’m pretty sure of it) - they’re just not as loud about it, because they usually make photography their outlet for those energies.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 17:18

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My question about guys talking like that has always been, I mean...if you said that to her, is she going to instantly get naked or ask you to marry her? She ain’t. So who are you saying it for?

Basically, never read the comments anywhere except Oppo.

Berang > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 17:19

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Nah see, the set up isn’t strong enough for that to work because you’re acting dismissive from the get go.

Also you don’t seem to have a grasp of irony. Which is sort of ironic, but not in an amusing way.

mikecyc72usa > Berang 01/10/2016 at 17:22

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Actually the CWC (creep with camera) issue is less than you think, because photographers understand what happens when one jerk casts a pall over them all. So most photogs have references, belong to professional groups, etc. that will be able to vett them. Sadly the car culture hasn’t caught on as much and thus, we still see misogynistic behavior.

EL_ULY > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 17:24

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Hola mana! Pues me vine aqui al DF. Me la pase bien. Puro tragar jaja! Regresaba el martes dia 5 pero me lastime de la columna gacho. Aqui todavía estoy en DF pero regreso hoy a las 8.

Como te la pasaste tu? Tronaron mas cuetes?

Berang > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 17:31

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I majored in photography. They’re there. I’ve met them and I’ve heard enough stories from models and friends, as well as seen enough of them online.

The problem is there’s a new one every minute and there’s a lot of inexperienced models that get taken advantage of. There’s also lots of “accidental” creeps who are usually noobs acting out of ignorance who don’t know what’s appropriate when working with models. I think the issue is that these days anybody with some money can go out buy some equipment and then thinks “hey I need to take some pictures of naked girls”. But I digress.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 17:34

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Lol, you are being ridiculous and hyperbolic. If your girlfriend wanted to have her picture taken next to one of your cars, clothed and posed as you would be , then sure. If your girlfriend wanted to have her picture taken straddling your car in a thong bikini, as messed up as it is, sexually inappropriate comments from men would be inevitable. It’s nice and contrarian to say “well men should be more respectful”, and we should... but as the world is today, for the most part we don’t. This is made clear by the continued existence of cheerleaders, grid girls, calendar girls and car show girls (note how we still call them girls rather than the women they actually are) in all these male dominated arenas. So if we really want to make women equal in the car enthusiasm realm, there’s two choices... we can do away with female only eye candy, or have female AND male eye candy in equal parts. Personally I think we should do away with the concept of using humans as sexually suggestive decoration for sports and cars PERIOD, but the current status quo is definitely biased and unfair to women.

Note there is nothing wrong with objectification.... men engage in it voluntarily and explicitly (bodybuilding, stripping) as do women in various mediums. But let’s call a spade a spade rather than try to have our cake and eat it too. A fitness model in a competition is a lot different than a woman straddling a car at an all male car show. From that point of view it’s no wonder there aren’t more female car enthusiasts. We have to do better.

McMike > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 17:36

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Good catch. I want more Jag, less Duran Duran groupie.

PardonMyFlemish16 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 17:37

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Again unless the old man was straddling the building I am not seeing the connection.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Scott 01/10/2016 at 17:42

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Badass wife

mikecyc72usa > PardonMyFlemish16 01/10/2016 at 17:43

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Again, you assume too much. I’m talking about my GF wearing the antithesis of a thong bikini. How about a nice dress and shoes? How about jeans and a sweater? How about she’s not drpaed over the car, merely sitting in the driver’s seat with the door open and her feet on the ground? Because guess what? That is the type of picture that has elicited the responses I’m referring to. As to female eye candy, more and more race series are doing away with it. Which is as it should be.

So now that you know the clothes and pose of the women in the pics I refer to, what say you now? Because to say the “like it or not” argument is a pretty lazy way to pay lip service without doing heavy lifting.

DrJohannVegas > Berang 01/10/2016 at 17:52

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Fair. I don’t make my money in humor. Still, the deeper issue is that, in the examples you give, the tension pause is short. In the examples the OP mentions, it’s usually after the deliverer of the “joke” is called out for crass comments that the “punchline” comes. Perhaps that pause works in other media, but when the conversation is bursts of text punctuated by spaces of time, it’s not the same.

When the setup and payoff are separated by enough time that someone can step in and comment on the setup in isolation, the act needs work. But hey, what do I know? I failed Humor 101.

Berang > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 17:55

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Somebody who actually knows what a joke is?

They’re not even actually contradicting the sentiments of the OP, if one reads them objectively. They’re explaining what a double entendre is and how it’s not inherently sexist.

Berang > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 17:59

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Context and intent are important, but you’re also grabbing at straws here.

I think it’s safe to say most of the time a model is leaned over a car, they’ve been put together because they’re aesthetically pleasing, and for no other reasons.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > PardonMyFlemish16 01/10/2016 at 18:00

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There is nothing inherently sexual or sexist about the old man and building just as there is nothing inherently sexual or sexist about the Yasmin/Jaguar photo above. It’s the people making lewd comments that make it so.

Xyl0c41n3 > Berang 01/10/2016 at 18:05

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Seeing as how MULTIPLE people have tried explaining all of this to you elsewhere in this thread, not even going to try. You clearly don't get it, and you have my pity. Have a nice day, though.

yamahog > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 18:11

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What if this was just a normal woman posing in the photo to remember the event? Entirely meant to be a personal memento. She wouldn’t be able to help it if someone else posted it on the internet.

That’s the point. You don’t know.

And even if that someone is a model, that does not automatically mean that she somehow deserves lewd jokes from strangers at her expense.

Berang > DrJohannVegas 01/10/2016 at 18:11

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Without the “punchline” it would probably be dry humor, at least if the person writing it intended it to be a joke. It’s still potentially humorous through ambiguity about what the author was referring to. And if the punchline was “...I mean the girl!” it’d be an anti-joke (assuming the author is insincere).

Whether they’re funny or appropriate is a different matter. But hey, what do I know? I’m a genius.

Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 18:14

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My God she’s got a beautiful, curvy body. If only someone would swat that nice looking lady off of her!

Drinkslikafix > mikecyc72usa 01/10/2016 at 18:15

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Good God people, that’s 77RW, the original E-Type convertible! Someone get that woman off of it, before her jewelry scratches the paint!

Berang > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 18:16

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Multiple people are wrong. So what?

(actually they all at least partly agree with me, and I with them)

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Berang 01/10/2016 at 18:17

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There are plenty of times when photos are taken for the purpose of objectifying women. You can hardly go somewhere or look in some direction without seeing something depicted in that way. But aesthetically pleasing doesn’t have to be demeaning or sexist. Nor was anything said about a model being “leaned over a car”. Sitting on or standing next to one can be completely natural and still aesthetically pleasing but in a complimentary way.

No other reasons?

yamahog > Scott 01/10/2016 at 18:17

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I can’t say I condone violence, but daaaaaaaang. My mom always said that the skeeziest dudes get their just desserts by raising daughters.

yamahog > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 01/10/2016 at 18:19

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This is how I feel about street harassment too. Really buddy, you think I’m going to chase you down for your number if you holla at me from your car?

Xyl0c41n3 > Berang 01/10/2016 at 18:19

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You're still here?

mikecyc72usa > Drinkslikafix 01/10/2016 at 18:21

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It’s only a car. I’ve driven and raced 250 series Ferraris, Cobras, Ace Bristols, Jags, Porsches, and have banged them up occasionally. No matter what car I own I won’t care if it gets dinged, scratched or dented as long as no one is hurt. However, I understand your sentiment totally.

Drinkslikafix > Drinkslikafix 01/10/2016 at 18:22

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For the record, I’m in agreement with the article. There’s no excuse for being disrespectful to anyone, regardless of gender....and I wouldn’t hesitate to deck someone who made comments like that about my wife.

Berang > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/10/2016 at 18:25

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Ah see, but objectification doesn’t necessarily have to be sexist or demeaning. I was just saying that more often than not, when these sorts of photos are staged, that’s all the model is there for. To look pretty on paper. Now they might be there because they own the car, or to provide scale, or because they wrote a poem about cars, etc. Yes all those things are possible. But most often it is just because they want to put a pretty girl with a pretty car, because that will make a pretty photo, which will make them money. That’s still objectification.

I like looking at aesthetically pleasing people like most anybody does, but I still recognize that aesthetics aside it’s usually trite and shallow.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > yamahog 01/10/2016 at 18:26

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I agree, and that’s the point I was trying to make. The guilt lies with those making the comments or stealing the photos, not those taking part in the photo.

Berang > Xyl0c41n3 01/10/2016 at 18:27

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Oh excuse me, I’ll vacate the internet for your convenience. Cheers! ;3c

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > yamahog 01/10/2016 at 18:31

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This exactly. Any variation on “hey girl” followed by a comment about her anatomy is probably not the way to go. I think it works something like 0 times out of a million.